Correcting an error: "Won't Back Down" wasn't shown at the Democratic National Convention, and the showing wasn't connected with it. It was shown at a separate site by billionaire-funded private so-called education "reform" organizations. Here's a commentary by some local moms. http://parentsacrossamerica.org/2012/09/pam-and-carols-excellent-students-first-adventure/

My child was indeed put in a closet for crying when I dropped her off in her classroom she was only 3 years old. I didn't find out about this until years later, but you can bet that I would have addressed this issue with trigger laws or no trigger laws in place!

BTW, I read in the Huffington Post that the film was viewed at the Convention. Sounds like one many of us should view... at a Convention or not!

I do think parents should have more rights to act against schools that are under-performing. And living in California, we do have the trigger law. But it seems rather hard to get heard all the same.

"/

It seems like this trigger law could be putting power in the wrong hands; but i am sure it would help many schools that need the attention.

Remember the story about the parapro who put tape over a child's mouth because the child wouldn't stop talking? http://athens.patch.com/articles/athens-parapro-remains-on-adminnistrative-leave I bet any teacher who locked a crying child in a closet here would be dismissed. The teachers I know want to help children succeed, not punish them. I'm glad my experience has been so positive....I know others have horror tales.

Have you seen the movie "Waiting for Superman"? I think that the same folks are involved in this film. The state of our public education system is scary and is failing many children. I say that if the powers that be can't pull the under-ranking schools up to par then the parents have every right to step in and demand better for their children. Tenured apathetic teachers are doing more harm than good. Thanks for bringing attention to education reform. Maybe we'll get the trigger law in Georgia and make some much needed changes. I'm unhappy with the fact the recess has been shortened in most Clarke County elementary schools to almost nothing. The kids need to play!!!

Actually, "Waiting for 'Superman' " was packed with falsehoods. Did you see Diane Ravitch's definitive rebuttal to it in the New York Review of Books, @Leigh? Link below. It and "Won't Back Down" are both funded by the same far-right forces whose goal is to privatize our public education system.

It's also anti-public-education propaganda to claim that due process and job security for teachers are the cause of low achievement. In reality, the opposite is true. The states that don't allow unions are consistently the states with the lowest academic achievement, and the most strongly unionized states have the highest academic achievement -- New York, Maryland and Massachusetts. The correlation is rock-solid.

The big problem with the notion that charter schools are the solution is that overall, charter schools perform less well than comparable public schools.

As far as this question, Leigh, I have to say that it's loaded and biased: "Do you think that parents aren't qualified to make decisions about their child's education?" Being qualified to make decisions about your child's education is one thing -- being qualified to take over a school and run it is another. Do YOU think it's feasible for parents to take over a school and actually run it? The movie shows a single mom w/2 jobs doing that. Really?

Here's the rebuttal to "Superman's" falsehoods:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/nov/11/myth-charter-schools/?pagination=false

Nope. The evidence supports what I posted. The more strongly unionized states correlate clearly with the highest academic achievement, and the states with the weakest unions are consistently the lowest academic achievers. That's the truth no matter how well-funded the false propaganda is trying to convince the public otherwise.

My agenda is to support and improve public education and to combat falsehoods comingifrom forces that intend to privatize schools so opportunists can profit from our kids' education funding.

Here's support for the truth about teachers' unions and academic achievement:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/guest-bloggers/how-states-with-no-teacher-uni.html

@Linda, that's terrible and I'm glad you acted to protect your child.

Note that this was a private school where the teacher was obviously nonunion and could be fired at will.

Note, too, that a private school can just tell the parent who objects, "If you don't like it, get out."

And note that the intent of the parent trigger is to privatize public schools, which gives parents far LESS power at the non-democratically run school.

Oh, and regarding putting tape over kids' mouths? The most famous case of that was engaged in by Michelle Rhee, head and founder of Students First, which sponsored that showing of "Won't Back Down" in Charlotte. Rhee did this during her brief time as a Teach for American temp teacher. She readily admits it and has laughed about it. So how ironic that she's bound and determined to portray teachers, now, as a bunch of abusers and sex perverts (yes, that's part of her message). That's even more ironic, because her husband founded a charter school in Sacramento, CA, and has been accused of sexual misconduct with female students. (Rhee's husband is Kevin Johnson, former NBA star and mayor of Sacramento.)

Doing some research puts an interesting twist on all this!

Thank you, and I'm sorry if I was sharp. And I love the Nancy Drew comparison!

Public schools are run based on a democratic system. It doesn't always work well, I'm the first to admit, but the democratic structure is in place. Our schools are overseen by elected school boards*. I don't know about in Georgia, but here in California and in other states, there is also an internal organization for each school that sets policies and does budgeting and includes parents and community members as well as school staff -- in my state it's called the School Site Council.

With privatized charter schools, there's no such democratic structure. They are run by boards to which new board members are appointed by the existing board. There's no outside input at all, unless the charter's structure chooses of its own will to grant it. So the irony (or just the dishonesty) of painting a charter takeover as "parent empowerment" is high.

*The only schools that are not overseen by elected school boards are in locales where the city's mayor has taken over the school district, removing the voter's ability to choose the governance. Ironically, that structure is promoted by and for the same so-called education "reformers" who promote the parent trigger.

Caroline, so how would you have responded if you child was at the elementary school with multiple sex abusers who were not removed? That happened recently in California. I disagree flagrantly with your comments. Flagrantly. So much so that I will respond to this post sometime tomorrow.

One note: The public school has my child from 7:40 in the morning until 2:45 in the afternoon, Monday through Friday. That's over 35 hours with MY CHILD. This year, I received a note with my child's "back to school paperwork" stating that I am to make an appointment if I want to visit the school. They have my child for over 35 hours a week, and I am expected to make an appointment to check in on my child or the quality of my child's instruction? In any paid setting, this would be laughable. Because the state runs the ridiculousness of this, it is seen as ordinary. Clarke County School District parents - fight the effing power - and get into your child's schools at your OWN WILL. They're not sending letters like this home in Oconee County. And just why do you think that is the case? Oh, and I'm still crying tears from laughter and bitterness about the excuse given over recess in Clarke County. Visit other school districts in the state. Ha effing ha. It's all a matter of SCHOOL CUTURE and what is TOLERATED and NOT TOLERATED.

I hope the kingdom falls down around the self-appointed kings and queens at the BOE. Still no more information forthcoming about the dismissal of the head of Human Resources at the BOE, along with 2 other employees. In this same year, that same employee was given a public award. Just goes to show how in touch some of these individuals are with what is REALLY GOING ON FROM DAY TO DAY.

Caroline - in answer to your issue with private schools - IF THAT IS AN ISSUE WITH A LOCAL CHARTER SCHOOL, THEN AT LEAST I HAVE A CHOICE OF 2 SCHOOLS! You see, that is an issue with our current school, and as much a I don't like it, I have to live with it, because I trust them and I think that they are delivering my child a quality education. But in our previous school, I wouldn't have left my child with the teacher assigned my child for an hour babysitting, much less an entire year!

Over and over and over and over if I have to keep typing it: GIVE US CHOICES. Then let us decide where we want to take our children. GIVE US CHOICES GIVE US CHOICES GIVE US CHOICES GIVE US CHOICES GIVE US CHOICES.
I don't give a flip about your "favorable stats." You're talking about test scores and I really don't give a flip about test scores. It is not the most accurate measure of a good school for my child. You don't know what you are talking about. I do. I'm an educator and the parent of 2 very successful children. I've been behind the glass doors. I've been to the circus and I've ridden the ponies. I know all the garbage that goes on in some districts. I've had enough of the attitude of some admins: "You don't have any rights - you're just a parent. We don't have to make you happy, we just have to follow our federal forms. As long as the proper forms are checked off, it doesn't matter that people are rude to your child or emotionally damaging to your child."

I think that this would happen in only extreme cases. I doubt that they are going to pull admins from current public schools that are now open. It sounds much more like the state entity is going to be in a position to approve new charter schools. I'm in favor of that, as you can tell. In every school, there are issues. Maybe for some, academic rigor is most important for their gifted or task-centered children. Maybe for others, the kid is going to have to be medicated if he doesn't get more time outside or in the gym. Maybe for some, they need a school that caters to ESOL students. Maybe for some, like me, academic rigor is important, but more important to me is a school culture that engages my child, nurtures my child, and makes learning fun. Although academics are important, I prioritize them more during middle school. I believe kids learn and learn to LOVE LEARNING in these types of environments - that is what my youngest child needs most - not exceeding test scores - although that would be a nice bonus.

I agree about test scores -- though to take this to the policy discussion level, the education "reform" sector (which does NOT give a crap about your child but is all about funneling your child's education funding into private pockets) attacks public schools ENTIRELY on the basis of their test scores. If you say test scores aren't most important thing, or there are reasons that schools have low test scores, the propaganda machine's response is: No excuses.

So an individual parent is one thing, but the education "reformers" do not get to say "test scores don't matter."

Anyway. The discussion of whether there should be more options, and additional choices, is a different one. The parent trigger is not about providing choice, period paragraph. So that's not an argument to be used in its favor.

My prediction is that there will never be a successful parent trigger in any case. If you have any experience in a school community and give it about 3 seconds' thought, you can see that the process would be guaranteed to ignite intense controversy and divisiveness -- which is exactly what has happened in the two real-life cases. And all that in pursuit of a "goal" with no track record of success? It's nuts. Only with effective propaganda like this apparently very well-acted and well-made movie would anyone with a lick of sense fall for this idiocy.

Caroline, although you make some good points, your views are very one sided. I happen to be very liberal in most respects, but when it comes to education, we certainly need to see some immediate reform in certain schools. You only have to go to the DMV once every couple of years, but how most howl on the day that they do have to go. Some of our children must suffer the same fate of beauracracy day after day - as part of their childhood development and exposure to education. The biggest tragedy is that many just do not know the experience of anything else - they haven't experienced education any other way, so they don't even know to be outraged.

Many are pretty tired (yawn) of the lame options proponents like you give for reform: "Take it to your local BOEs, blah, blah, blah" "Organize a charter school in your area, blah, blah, blah" "Pull your child out and homeschool, blah, blah, blah...."

Ridiculous. Most parents have to work and don't have the luxurious option of homeschooling. Most BOEs have absolutely no intention of sharing precious funds with a charter school that would have the luxury of interviewing potential students and families and escaping gov't requirements. Organizing a charter school requires capital. Something must be done in certain schools, and it isn't going to happen with people like you suggesting we just stick our hands in our pockets and shrugging our shoulders.

@Athens Mama, you can scoff at and dismiss the alternatives I offer, but the facts remain: Someone convinced you that the parent trigger would offer choice, and I've now debunked that. Whoever told you that lied to you -- are you still willing to believe all the other snake oil they sold you?

The parent trigger does not offer choice. What the parent trigger does is divert YOUR CHILDREN's education funding into the pockets of private profiteers. Is your concept that the other options are just so stupid and "blah blah blah" that you're willing to hand over your kid's school to predators who intend to profit from it? That just seems pretty risky to me.

Yes, it is true that charter schools have the luxury of screening out families and kids they don't want (of course, that could be yours, or mine). That isn't actually a solution, as you may already have figured out. And considering that, doesn't it strike you as kind of lame that charter schools overall are significantly LESS successful than public schools -- again, given that they "have the luxury of interviewing (aka excluding) potential students and families"?

@BJ Van Gundy, what I said is true, and nothing I've posted has been false, inaccurate or a lie. I dispute and refute (and object to) your false and malicious attack on me. (In fact, I think that given the personal attack, Patch should take it down.)

Charter schools in California aren't supposed to screen either, and they claim not to with a wink and their fingers crossed behind their back, but of course they do. No authorities oversee their admissions processes. They use many devices to do that screening, such as imposing admissions requirements that screen out all but the most motivated, and admissions counseling that lets the undesirable families know the school is not the right fit for their kids.

To repeat. Those processes are not overseen in any way. There is no district, county or state agency that has the resources or authority to oversee charter schools' admissions processes. Are you telling me that's different in Georgia?

Also, please note that @Athens Mama, who seems to be a charter school advocate, brought up the fact that charter schools screen, so isn't your issue with her for, oops, revealing the semi-secret truth?

Nothing else I've said in any of these posts is inaccurate either. If you'd care to, please list what I've said and your version, and I will set you and the readers here straight.

Schools that are failing are more often than not, a product of the community they reside it. Low income, lack of parental involvement, lack of discipline with students (due to their lack of a stable home environment), and other outside factors, are significantly more important in how a school performs.

You all can discuss this all you want but until you are a teacher and working in one of those schools, you're only flapping your jaws.

Yes Caroline. I'm telling you that it is different in Georgia. Georgia Charter Schools DO NOT screen students. You have no idea what you are talking about regarding Georgia Charters.

Regarding Athens Mama, rather than me rereading all of the posts... please share with me where she said such and I will refute that statement next.

You HAVE been inaccurate. Charter Schools in Georgia have a great track record of taking students who have under-performed on standardized tests and gotten them to extra-perform.

Once again however. I have no time for those that simply spout opinion as though it is somehow fact (and even less time for those that spout it ignorantly from another STATE!):

"Charter schools are overall less successful"
"the intent of the parent trigger is to privatize public schools"
"The parent trigger is not about providing choice"

Caroline. Georgia ranks in the bottom quintile in education compared with the rest of the country. We have been in that basement since the beginning of time (metaphorically speaking).

The education establishment and State Superintendents (both D and R) have been saying they were going to fix this for 40+ years now... but we remain in the basement.

Something has to give. The status quo that you promote simply hasn't worked and won't work in the future. They have a track record. It is BAD.

Why don't you stick to California and we'll discuss this in Georgia. Your ignorance of Georgia issues hurts your argument.

Here's what Athens Mama said, and of course this means *screening*:

Most BOEs have absolutely no intention of sharing precious funds with a charter school that would have the luxury of interviewing potential students and families and escaping gov't requirements.

Here's the truth about these points:
"Charter schools are overall less successful"
TRUE. Nationwide, charter schools are less successful -- by far -- than comparable public schools. If that's not true in Georgia, and you can back it up, OK, but it is true overall nationwide. The best-known nationwide study revealing this was conducted by CREDO at Stanford University's Hoover Institution, which by the way has a PRO-charter agenda (but enough integrity to reveal that charters did poorly in its own study).
"the intent of the parent trigger is to privatize public schools"
TRUE. The parent trigger was conceived in California and is being promoted nationwide by a billionaire-funded organization, Parent Revolution. Parent Revolution was founded by charter school operator Steve Barr. Its clear intent is to turn schools into charters, which means privatizing them. That's beyond dispute or denial.
"The parent trigger is not about providing choice"
TRUE. This is obvious, since the question is simply about whether a successful parent trigger (should such ever occur, which it won't) would create a second school for parents to choose. It wouldn't. Their school would be privatized. That's not choice.

And my ignorance of Georgia issues is completely irrelevant, since we're discussion national proposals and policies, one of which originated here in California.

Veterans will be the losers if Romney wins. The Romney-Ryan budget has cut tens of billions. Yesterday's NY Times (Sept 10) brought it all to light and the method the GOP is making to hide it in the budget details. Because this is a complicated area of the budget, it's difficult to read and even more so to explain, so the Democrats have left it alone.

I think Romney and Ryan have to be asked the question directly; "Are you cutting VA benefits?" If they say no, frankly they're lying.

"That's beyond dispute or denial." Just because you make statements like this in debate doesn't make it true Caroline. It just makes your arguing style obnoxious.

I can dispute it and deny it all day. It isn't "beyond dispute or denial." You just like to say things like... meaning "now shut up... I'm RIGHT!"

Your WHOLE premise that charter schools are "private" is false to begin with. Therefore, any of your arguments that you then use that as the basis for are also false.

You are an angry angry educator. I'm familiar with your ilk. It isn't attractive or helpful to your cause. But then again it is quite representative of your cause.

My cause is improved education for children. Not putting money in my pocket (I haven't EVER been paid for my support of charter schools... in fact, my time as Board member/chairman of the Georgia Charter Schools Association and service on the Georgia Charter Schools Commission cost me in the several thousands of dollars.

I also don't care about putting money in the pocket of anyone else with public charter schools.

Children should be educated to the best of what they can handle. Not to the best of what the education establishment feels like they can get away with providing.

School choice, whether it be the parent trigger, charter schools, or other means, provides a means to that end.

OH! I forgot to add this to the end:

Period. The end. Facts are facts. There is nothing left to argue. That is beyond dispute or denial. It is obvious. Truth is truth. Everything I said is undebatable. There is no room for further discussion!

LOL. Now I'm obnoxious.

Oh. Forgot to do this for you Caroline:

Athens Mama is wrong about schools in Georgia being able to screen students. All charters in Georgia are required to take ALL students that apply. In the event that more students apply for entrance to the school than there are spots... they are required to do a lottery.

The lottery is typically attended by hundreds of individuals (parents and students) and often includes education officials who come oversee that it is run fairly.

There are no interview. There are no admission tests. There are no resumes to submit... or financial statements of parents... or promises of parental involvement...

Period. Undebatable. Undeniable. Beyond dispute.

LOL. Hey! This feels pretty good after I write something! Now I know why you do it with everything you say!

@BJ, making this into a personal attack on me doesn't make your argument more effective, or true either.

By the way, I'm not an educator; I'm a parent advocate.

Again, nobody oversees these enrollment processes. The fact that an education official may show up if a charter is holding one of those public lottery circuses doesn't mean there's oversight.

Nobody is making sure that charter schools don't test, interview, require very long admissions applications with additional documents, all those hurdles that allow them to pick and choose as they like. Considering that, it's amazing that charter schools overall are so much less successful than comparable public schools.

Perhaps that's not true in Georgia and charter schools there are actually more successful than comparable public schools. But the charter sector has consistently, falsely claimed itself to be superior nationwide when it actually is not, so that fact harms the credibility of a claim from within the Georgia charter sector that --exclusively in Georgia -- charter schools are superior.

Charter schools are privately run with public funding. They only run democratically (with any input from the school community or the greater community) if they choose to; otherwise, their boards are self-elected. It's accurate to refer to them as privatized.

Oh, I'm a volunteer advocate, by the way.

I'm a volunteer advocate as well Caroline... But it appears that I'm more fulfilling the role of "advocate". I think your role here would be better described as "opponent".... I really don't see anything above that you actually "advocate".

And you are wrong again Caroline. There are many many many making sure that charter schools don't test, interview... blah blah blah.

They are called the parents that get screened (if this was in fact happening)!

Seriously Caroline. If a school has a lottery, and it is all a show as you suggest, don't you think that those parents whose children got "screened" and then didn't get chosen in the lottery might raise a stink?

Don't you think that if a lottery is held for admission, and the parents that are trying to get their children into the school had to fill out a long application, submit transcripts or subject their children to testing, that they wouldn't ask what the hell was all the testing and transcripts and application for if this is just going to be done on a lottery basis?

Really Caroline. If you would think just about 3 more minutes about the points you try to make in your zeal to be an OPPONENT and see that they logically fall apart you wouldn't embarrass yourself with such inanity as suggesting that the lottery is just for show.

And charter schools ARE NOT "so much less successful than comparable public schools". Once again. Just because you utter it doesn't make it so.

People Person: I believe that you are lost as your post is not on topic. Then again. Not surprising.

The CREDO study showed that charter schools are much less successful overall than comparable public schools. It's not because I uttered it; it's because a respected (and by the way pro-charter) research organization determined it. Other studies have had the same findings, but this one is the largest-scale, best known and most authoritative.

I know numerous charters (now I'm talking about in my area) that employ all these screening processes. Parents rarely make a stink. Often they don't know.

If a school requires a test and that's a deterrent, real-life experience shows that the family simply doesn't pursue the process. They could choose to do enough research to learn that the school isn't supposed to require a test and that it's secretive about requiring the test -- and then make a stink -- but reality shows that that doesn't happen.

The most successful and best-known charter school in my area has a 13-page admission application requiring all those things; occasionally there's a mini-flap; it dies down and the process remains the same. That's real life.

That's real life in your little world over there California. There's a lot more world out here that you know nothing of but have decided that it is valid to overlay your small personal experience across it.

That isn't acceptable. And I won't allow you to do it.

The charters here in Georgia have lotteries. They do NOT have screening of any kind. Period. Undebatable. Done deal.

Regarding CREDO. The problem with your rhetoric is your desire to only spin negatively. Let's take the EXACT wording from CREDO and then you can editorialize from there:

"The study reveals that a decent fraction of charter schools, 17 percent, provide superior education opportunities for their students. Nearly half of the charter schools nationwide have results that are no different from the local public school options and over a third, 37 percent, deliver learning results that are significantly worse than their student would have realized had they remained in traditional public schools."

So here we are with your dishonest statement that "charter schools are much less successful overall"... unless "overall" means 37%.

What is indicated is that 67% are at or above the regular public schools. That is "overall" quite good.

The beauty of a charter school that fails however is in the fact that it will be shut down. The opposite is true of regular public schools and that is the danger and ugliness of the status quo that you advocate. (Look! I found something that you advocate for!)

More from CREDO (specifically from the Georgia Report):

"For students in Georgia, Figures 8.a and 8.b show that charter schools do about the same as traditional public schools in most respects. The effect of charter school attendance on growth results in both math and reading is mostly insignificant across the deciles."

and

"English Language Learner students in charter schools do significantly better in math from charter school attendance compared to their counterparts in traditional public schools."

and

"students in poverty enrolled in charter schools do significantly better in
reading and math compared to their counterparts in traditional public schools."

Maybe we just happen to be doing it right here in Georgia. But once again... your generalizations fall apart with just a little bit more research.

Caroline. I don't have anything against you personally. But I do have something against someone inserting themselves into a discussion in which they are poorly informed and acting as though they are the smartest person on the planet on the subject.

Please reconsider doing so in the future.

@BJ Van Gundy: Patch welcomes a lively discussion of issues raised in articles. But it does not welcome personal attacks, as per the Terms of Use. I removed one of your posts in which you called another person "a liar." Please play nice. Thanks.

Thanks for trying to bully me into silence, @BJ-- your peeps have been trying that for many years, and it pretty much rolls off me by now.

The accurate way to represent the CREDO findings is that 83% of charter schools do about the same or worse than comparable public schools.

17% of charter schools perform better than comparable public schools
37% of charter schools perform worse than comparable public schools.

I'll leave it there. If anyone is still following this, make your own decisions about whether charter schools are superior.

Regarding Georgia's results, sounds like charters do better -- but no better than public schools. Charter schools also famously admit fewer of the very poorest of the poor, fewer English-language learners and fewer students w/disabilities, especially more severe disabilities. Charter advocates admit this. That affects results significantly in those subgroups.

When you talk about whether parents would tolerate their kids being tested and screened, presumably we're talking about human nature. I doubt if human nature is that different in Georgia than in California. Here, charter schools get away with testing, screening, discouraging undesirable applicants in interviews and other such ploys -- and no, there is not an outcry that stops this. That's despite @BJ's claim that this could never happen because there'd be an outcry. So, Patch staff and readers, make your own decisions.

LOL Rebecca. I'll call it dishonest discourse in the future. Cheers!

Caroline... I have done no such thing as "bullying". Seriously. That is just sad as a response. Unless of course by "bullying" you mean directly quoting CREDO.... well then I guess I'm guilty.

Glass half full / glass half empty regarding the 87 vs 63% number.

I choose to look at the positive side and as I stated appreciate that 17% are doing better and no harm no foul has occurred with the 50% (however I would submit to you that further investigation into the 50% number would show that the particular children in question are 1) benefiting from a safer environment and/or 2) one more suitable to their learning acumen, and that is why the parents made the choice to move them.

Once again, bad charters are shut down and/or the parents have the CHOICE of moving their children back to the public school or another school if things are not working out in the favor of the children.

The status quo establishment would not allow for such a choice in the first place and that is most unfortunate.

Oh. And your last paragraph is once again just simply opinion without any proof to back it up. I'll do as I promised Rebecca and stay nice...

Cheers!

Sure, parents can ordinarily transfer their kids back out of troubled charters. But what is the parent to do if a parent trigger has led to a charter takeover of their kid's/kids' school? Then they have to go find some entirely different school if the charter does poorly, as a great number of charters do. Again, charter advocates are confused, claiming that a consummated parent trigger that turned a public school into a charter would somehow add a level of choice. No, that's not what would happen.

@BJ, this is just in case you don't know what the parameters are. Calling me obnoxious, dishonest, poorly informed, etc., and telling me to "reconsider" participating in the discussion "in the future" does constitute bullying. It generally coarsens the tone of the discussion and is an obvious effort to both distract from the substance and intimidate me into silence. Just to be clear. Back to the topic.

In some cases, troubled charters are shut down. In my area and others, some badly troubled charters fight (with the powerful backing of the very well-funded charter/"reform" sector) against attempts to hold them accountable no matter how troubled they are, causing divisiveness, controversy and financial cost that harm communities. Perhaps Georgia is very effective in shutting down troubled charters, so I won't try at all to speculate on what's the case there. In the wider charter world, it's not that easy.

Thank you for the respectful question, @Larry.

Yes, I oppose parent trigger laws. In the current climate and in their current form I am not a fan of charter schools; put it that way.

Unionized school systems DEMONSTRABLY perform considerably better -- the statistics are very clear. I'm not saying that's because they're unionized. More likely the correlation is with poverty -- nonunion/right-to-work states are likely to be high poverty, and high poverty correlates with low academic performance. But that fact does conclusively disprove the constant drumbeat from the so-called education "reform" sector that teachers' unions are to blame for low performance.

There are a number of reforms that I (and many others) believe improve schools -- including small class sizes, adequate funding, enrichments such as arts, music, P.E. and more, and policies encouraging meaningful, active parent involvement. In high-poverty schools, full wraparound services make a difference. Turning schools into charters has never, ever been shown to improve them. That's why I oppose the parent trigger.

You mean referring to you in the same manner that you refer to those of us in the school choice movement is bullying. Then I guess I'm guilty.. but so are you.

Calling those of us in the school choice movement "opportunists", "non-democratic", "so-called", calling the choice movement "idiocy" and accusing us of a conspiratorial agenda is your form of bullying the school choice crowd. I took personal offense to that before I entered the fray here. So I entered this discussion with your insults and nastiness already having been demonstrated. You can hardly be so thin skinned as to throw it around and then be unable to take it. I may have mistakenly aimed it directly at you as opposed to you aiming your vitriol at a whole movement but what I'm saying is "You started it".

Additionally, to also dictate that you know what is in my heart by stating that those in the choice movement "does NOT give a crap about your child" hardly helped with the tenor of the discourse here.

I DO give a crap about these children. My own 4 children are in great public schools. I just also think that those children that aren't given equal access to great public schools simply because they live in some neighborhood that doesn't have even a halfway decent school should be given a chance to get out of the crap school that they are in.

You think they should be kept there. And that in summary is what this discussion is about. Period. Undebatable. Done.

No, I don't think kids should be kept in crap schools. I think that desperate parents should not be sold phony snake oil.

As you acknowledge, there is a difference between attacking someone directly (and I am using my full name here) and characterizing a movement. The proper response is: I'm sorry and I won't do it again.

(Also, your movement IS funded and supported by the wealthiest and most powerful forces in the land, so I'm wielding my slingshot at Goliath while you're attacking and insulting me personally. There is a distinction, and what you're doing is bullying.)

I'm not thin-skinned or I would not have spent more than a decade fighting this juggernaut. Objecting to being bullied is not the same as being thin-skinned. I can take it, but I still object.

Sorry I insulted you personally.

Now. Overall the anti-charter school crowd is ignorant, poorly informed, obnoxious and dishonest. Not you personally. All those other folks.

I'm glad we had this moment.

Regarding funding. Just because there is funding from very successful and smart people who have nothing to gain for themselves but are known to be very philanthropic toward good causes certainly isn't evil.

I'm assuming you are referring to the Walton Foundation, Bernie Marcus and the Koch Brothers.

I'm proud that these outstandingly generous, to so many worthy causes, people/organizations, support the school choice movement. They do it out of patriotism and a sincere desire to see education improved in this country rather than continuing to watch the USA fall behind so many other countries in education.

Something that the anti-charter school crowd doesn't seem to be bothered by. Not you. All of them.

No, it's not inherently evil for the very wealthy to fund causes. My point is that they are Goliath. This movement is funded by the wealthiest and most powerful forces in the land (portraying themselves as the new civil rights heroes).

I do need to correct the inaccurate statement that the U.S. has "fallen behind" other nations. We do indeed test in the middle of the pack among developed nations. But there are some important points:

The U.S. has the second-highest child poverty rate in the developed world, behind only Romania, according to UNICEF. Poverty correlates directly with low academic achievement. Here are some other points:

U.S. 15-year-olds in schools with fewer than 10% low-income kids score first in the world in reading.
U.S. schools with fewer than 25% low-income kids beat all nations except Finland and South Korea.
U.S. schools with 25-50% low-income kids still beat most developed nations.
Source: Stanford University

The U.S. has NEVER tested well, so our students have not "fallen." There was mass panic in 1957 when the Soviets launched Sputnik. The first international test score comparisons were made in the early '60s, and the U.S. was in the middle of the pack in the developed world at that time too. We tested in the middle of the pack at the time we won the space race, at the time we led the world in creativity and innovation (as we still do), and at the time that we had the world's No. 1 economy.

And for those that want to use rankings of school systems, please be aware that you are almost never comparing apples to apples. Georgia has some of the toughest test of any state in the nation. Some states have less rigorous testing and therefore appear to do better than other states.

@Jeff Banks, "excuse" for Chicago: Very high poverty and community dysfunction.
Rubber rooms: Created mostly by administrative/management idiocy, plus greatly exaggerated.

But still, in the big picture, unionized states do consistently better academically. No amount of bluster and posturing can change that.

Wrong, @North Georgia Weather. The definitive test is the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP), the same across the country. SAT scores reveal the same thing.

So let me get this straight...if charter schools perform as poorly as or worse than traditional public schools, it's because charter schools are BAD and don't care about the students.

But if public school performance is bad, it's just because the students they serve are poor, have uninvolved parents, community dysfunction, etc.

How interesting!

@North Georgia Weather, the standardized state tests are not the ones used for the state-to-state comparisons. They simply aren't. The NAEP is the comparison used -- same test given nationwide.

@Jeff Banks, the issues in Chicago are pretty off topic. The key point is that unionized states perform better academically.
@Julie F, I never said charter schools were bad or don't care about the students. I said that data shows they are overall the same or less successful than public schools. They are faced with the same challenges as public schools -- low-income students, uninvolved parents, community dysfunction -- and overall, they overcome those challenges no more successfully and often less successfully than public schools.

I do think the predators who are trying to profit from your children's education funding are "bad" and "don't care about the students." They want your kids' money flowing into their pockets. That applies to a large segment of the so-called education "reform" sector. But I wasn't applying it to educators in charter schools.

Actually, what you said is flipped. Here's the usual sequence: The so-called education "reform" sector sneers at poverty as an "excuse" when discussing the challenges faced by public schools, including low test scores. Then when charter schools perform no better, the "reform" sector starts recognizing poverty as a legitimate issue.

@BJ Van Gundy- I'm so appreciate of your input on this. I can give you many truthful, qualitative feedback from my myriad experiences as a parent and in multiple schools and counties as an educator, but I do not have as much specific information on the macrocosm. I also appreciate that you have children in public schools.
@Caroline - I know you are trying to save America from the "opportunistic profiteers," but there absolutely is truth in the fact that some schools are fat ticks on the public good.

I heard someone say recently, "Most teachers I know work hard and should not be penalized for their students' test scores. Kids in some schools make it really tough."
I agree with this statements to a degree, but being in different schools has allowed me to see several things.
1. Some people who are working with children actually hate children. They set an example of an "intimidator" style adult.
2. Some people are just "riding it out" the 15 or so years until they retire. That's 15 classes of children who will suffer at the mercy of those who are not really interested in explaining it again, and maybe again, to those who struggle. Who are not really interested in providing mental stimulation for the kids who are always thinking above the crowd and finish the busywork early.
3. Some people will blame kids for their home environments, and exonerate themselves from being accountable for those kids' education (and showing them any respect) because it's an easy scapegoat.

Actually, I believe most teachers LOVE kids. Locking a child up in a closet with duct tape on their mouth is always wrong. However, there are some parents who might benefit from it.

@Chris - what do you believe to be a fantasy?

I think he is saying facetiously that some parents should shut their mouths.

I read the entire thread of comments - Whoa, this is a hot issue. It's hot for me because I couldn't do a darned thing when I requested that my child not be placed in a classroom, out of several classrooms, due to the exceptionally poor reputation of the teacher's treatment of students. This wasn't the first time - the first teacher my child had in the school, for an entire year, yelled at the students, and my child finally reported the following year that the teacher yelled at him for giving the wrong answers. So, how well do you think my child will test when it's time for CRCTs and SATs? Think there's a possibility that my child's academic psyche might have been damaged, maybe even permanently? How many more like my child are out there, at the mercy of those in charge? Parent trigger could have helped us if I had tried to organize support within the school. As it was, I had to make split second decisions because I wasn't going to continue down the yellow brick road with that school. Parent trigger is a win for the common good! If the parents want to convert to charter - then they made their own choice there, reflecting that the charter was worse than what they originally had in their school. I know you want to save us from big business - I'm not a Wal-Mart fan, or corporations as people fan, but I am definitely a fan of alternatives - and saving us from government stagnation in some situations that involve children is LONG OVERDUE IN [some parts of] GEORGIA!

John B - you obviously don't know me. A teacher who yelled at a child for giving the wrong answer? That's ok for you? You obviously don't know much about child development. I defended that teacher to parents at a birthday party when they complained that from the halls of the school they could hear the teacher yelling at six year olds. The other adult in the room barred the door whenever I came for a special event or to eat lunch with my child. That is not normal - I know because I've been a parent in public education for 10 years and have taught in elementary. I observed the other adult in the room - paid by the district - pinch a child's arm and pull the child out of line for saying "I don't want to be in this line" quietly at an outdoor event. The child was put in time-out for an indetermined amount of time. I'm so overprotective and such a victim - wow. I'd like to know more about your children, if you have any. One of my kids just took the SAT as a seventh grader and got a medal from the state of Georgia for the high score. My child receives multiple awards in recognition for service and leadership at school. My child was invited to Duke University this summer for a special program, and will be attending through high school. Straight A student in middle school. So I guess I'm not a total idiot about parenting and such.....

How about putting a non-verbal child with Autism in a wooden box because the child bites? ...putting a mostly non-verbal child with Autism in an area constructed of office partitions, completely in the dark, without access to light inside it? How about separating a class of eighth graders into 2 groups - those that passed a test and those that did not. Then calling out those that did not pass for most of the hour? How about pushing down the shoulders of a high school student with both emotional and physical challenges, telling the student, 3 inches from the student's face "You will work." How about a sixth grader picked up by the back of the pants and carried to the door by a teacher when the student wouldn't obey? Most of these I've witnessed directly. I bet if that were your child, John B, you'd be the first one screaming when your child was put in a youth detention center for hitting a teacher. I guess you'd prefer we go back to the days when kids were paddled and hit on the knuckles with rulers. Well, let me give you a little Education lingo, buddy. There's this term called "engagement." If you "engage" a child in learning and in the learning environment, you get a better chance of academic achievement. Goofy laughs. Wow, ya think? Goofy laughs again. Why don't we skip the public school system all together and just dump 33% out the window from the first grade? Hey, we wouldn't want to be overprotective of them and expect a quality learning environment...

Buddy, I've been in the best private schools money can buy. Guess what? The teachers respect the students! Goofy - why are you laughing? The customers pay money so that their kids get treated well, taught that learning is fun, and get excellent curriculum. Wow! Novel concept....customers pay for quality services....Mind you, oh intellectual, that didn't mean all the private school student always behave perfectly. When they are wrong, they get called out. But the basis of education in a quality learning environment is "engagement." Oh, there's that complicated Education term again. Look it up buddy.

AM......You left out stories of tasers and water boarding......You're right...I don't know much about child development. I'm leaning on you as the educator to educate me. I'm curious as to how your child continues to excel in school understanding that a few posts north of this one her academic psyche was permanently damaged. Anyway, I would never condone physically abusing a child but honestly you rant so much it's difficult to discern fact from embellishment and each of your subsequent posts the magnitude of abuse grows. BTW....I'm a father of four well adjusted kids. Miraculously, they have all survived the public school systems; two have gone on to graduate from UGA and GT and two currently enrolled....all this in spite of their dad being a total retard.

AM, your problem is that you try to lump all teachers in the same boat. I don't know what's wrong with your Oconee county schools. You point out one or two teachers and make it sound like all teachers are the same. My wife takes offense to that and she is a SPED teacher. I work with teachers all day long and I don't see what you see. Maybe you need to move or do something to correct it, like run for the school board there.

All of your fantasy classrooms are in the private school systems where people pay VERY good money to get an education.

And being condescending is not becoming of you.

Okay, I have to get in a conversation about Clarke County schools in general and special ed in particular. I have a special education student now in first grade, and her teachers and the staff of the school want nothing more than for her to succeed. Her classroom teacher is helping her do that, every day, and so is the special ed teacher. Athens Mama and I realize her child's experience was very different. I had my daughter tested through the school system when she was three, and she started getting services then for her fine and gross motor delays. She also gets private occupational therapy as well as OT through the school system. Of course, I am a pushy person when it comes to my daughter....and I realize she has difficulties to overcome and behaviors she needs to correct. I feel as though I am part of a team focused on making her school experience a happy, productive one. But I know a lot of parents who won't even admit their child needs extra help until the kid is 8 or 9, and by then, it may be too late. Or much harder to resolve problems. From what AM says, we have been lucky, but also, as I said, I am focused on helping my daughter develop the best that's within her. And right now, the Clarke County School District is, too.

If parents are involved in their child's education, the child will be fine. It's the parents of the misbehaving, rude, disrespectful, and lazy kids that perpetuate the problem that teachers and schools have.

My bad about the county. And I had no idea about the car! :-) I'm getting behind and it's probably just as well.

Rebecca- My niece is a special needs student too. People don't realize the extra stress that parents of special needs kids feel toward making sure they are doing everything they can for their little one. You are one awesome Mom!
Would it be fair to say that one of the keys to your success is your ability to work with the teachers and be an active, positive participant in her development? I would bet so.
-M

@North Georgia Weather - you are right about the trends in family involvement. I've definitely seen that to be true, and I think that is the major complaint from many educators in certain environments in Clarke. Still, you get more flies with honey than vinegar! You can never give up! If you sign up to teach with a difficult population in a certain school - you've got to love those kids, and be ready to enforce consequences they don't like if they're working against you. But you've got to love them first in order for the parents to trust you and in order for the kids to buy in out of more than just fear.

@Rebecca - believe it or not, I second your experience in Clarke County. We had a phenomenal experience for 6 years. Then we were rezoned. I had no idea what I was getting into. I had only known teachers who loved kids, who were amazing teachers. Anyone who wants to bash me for putting one child in private school - that child did attend for 6 years, and made great contributions to the test scores, the social environment, and tutored kids in the class who struggled. We are not all about ourselves. Still, I had to do what was best for my child. I could not send my child to a school that at the time was being run like a prison. But let it go down in print again - before any private school touched my child - my child scored in the top 7% of private school students after 6 years in Clarke County. I would shine the shoes of any of the teachers who taught my child, if they called and asked me today.