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Moms Talk: Is Circumcision Best?

This week's discussion is on newborn circumcision and whether it's the best decision for baby.

Circumcision became common practice in the United States in the 1940s and 1950s, but pediatricians are beginning to oppose it now.

Historically, circumcision has been documented as a religious practice for people of the Jewish faith to symbolize their covenant to God since the beginning of its origins, and the Egyptians practiced circumcision more than 2000 years ago. It has evolved into a routine procedure, which for many parents, has nothing to do with religion.

The current debate is over whether circumcision is dangerous and unnecessary for newborn male infants. Opposition views circumcision as being much like a cosmetic procedure that provides no medical benefit to the child. They even point to evidence of harmful effects that can cause death in approximately 1 out of 6000 circumcisions performed per year.

The supporting side feels that circumcision is better for the child in terms of hygiene -- the area is easier to keep clean without the foreskin. Also, some supporters say circumcision serves as a prevention against cervical carcinoma, a condition that some say is worsened with the presence of smegma. However, there is nothing statistically relevant to validate those claims.

With everything that you've seen in the media, you've probably come to conclusions of your own. So this week, weigh in and share your opinions on this highly controversial issue:

Do you think that we should continue circumcising male newborn babies? Is it right or wrong? Why or why not?

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Jakew April 4, 2011 at 03:59 pm
"Did you notice a theme here?" -- yes, you (or more accurately Dan Bollinger, from whom you've plagiarised the list) have selected twelve examples of people claiming that circumcision prevents masturbation. But of course, this doesn't disprove anon's remark that such beliefs appealed only to a fringe: after all, it shouldn't be hard to find twelve examples of even a fringe belief. To show that it was not a fringe belief you'd have to obtain a representative sample of writings about circumcision and demonstrate that such beliefs about masturbation were present in a significant proportion of these articles.
Craig Ginsberg April 4, 2011 at 04:03 pm
"Dan Bollinger, from whom you've plagiarised the list"
Hardly, these have been available every were for quite sometime.
Craig Ginsberg April 4, 2011 at 04:06 pm
its evident for any one who is familiar with Americas long history with sexual repression.
Jakew April 4, 2011 at 04:12 pm
[Re "Dan Bollinger, from whom you've plagiarised the list"] "Hardly, these have been available every were for quite sometime." -- Plagiarism is presenting other people's work as your own without giving due credit. It doesn't matter whether the work is widely available or not. Bollinger is generally credited as the author. For example, "Most of the timeline was assembled by Dan Bollinger..." http://www.circinfosite.com/2.html.
Craig Ginsberg April 4, 2011 at 04:15 pm
"by and large, fictional." Hardly, theirs no denying the mechanical function nor the sensory function. No skin on the body is without sensory function. And if there is no glands in the foreskin as you claim, then where does smegma come from? Both of these facilitate non abrasive sexual activity. Vaginal dryness is among the TOP complaints of American women especially older women. Once in a monogamous relationship there are no STD's to be protected from, the only purpose circ does in this case is damage sex life and damage relationships. A factor you never weigh in. The protective functions as also evident, i dunno if you have looked at a dry penis compared to a well lubricated intact penis. Those Chinese researchers clearly showed with a rock solid methodology that circ decreases sensitivity to vibration, future research will likely discover more losses. The foreskin is good at detecting stretch, temperature, and touch but of course you argue these are unimportant sensations that do not serve a sexual function. You defy logic.
http://intactipedia.org/index.php?title=Immunological_and_Protective_Function_of_the_Foreskin
Craig Ginsberg April 4, 2011 at 04:17 pm
well its not where i got it
Craig Ginsberg April 4, 2011 at 04:22 pm
If you are to back your germ theory claim, one must wonder how the conclusion of the foreskin being dirty was logically and/or scientifically deduced.
Jakew April 4, 2011 at 04:28 pm
"And if there is no glands in the foreskin as you claim, then where does smegma come from?" -- it's a mixture of exfoliated skin cells, urine, and prostatic secretions.
"Vaginal dryness is among the TOP complaints of American women especially older women." -- there's no convincing evidence that it's related to circumcision, however. "Those Chinese researchers clearly showed with a rock solid methodology that circ decreases sensitivity to vibration" -- a "rock solid methodology"? Craig, turn the propaganda dial down a notch or two. I haven't read the full text of the study, because I can't read Chinese, and hence can't evaluate their methodology, and I'm willing to bet that you can't either. So what we actually have is one study, with a methodology that cannot be evaluated, reporting an effect on vibration sensitivity, and two others (Bleustein 2003 and 2005) that found no effect. "The foreskin is good at detecting stretch, temperature, and touch" -- there's little evidence in support of these claims, with the exception of light touch, which studies indicate the foreskin is about equal to the rest of the penis in sensing.
Jakew April 4, 2011 at 04:32 pm
"well its not where i got it" -- fine. Just say where you got it, and it's not plagiarism. (It could be a copyright violation, though, so do check, or better still, just link to it instead of copying it.)
"If you are to back your germ theory claim, one must wonder how the conclusion of the foreskin being dirty was logically and/or scientifically deduced." -- not my claim, but it seems a reasonable thing to say. I would think such a deduction would be based upon the fact that balanitis and posthitis are seen so much more frequently among uncircumcised males.
Craig Ginsberg April 4, 2011 at 04:59 pm
"haven't read the full text of the study, because I can't read Chinese, and hence can't evaluate their methodology" actually i just pasted into google translate. They tested sensitivity to vibration before and after circumcision. this effectively controls for some the short comings encountered in the sorells study.
"there's little evidence in support of these claims, with the exception of light touch, which studies indicate the foreskin is about equal to the rest of the penis in sensing." if you call histology little evidence then sure.
Craig Ginsberg April 4, 2011 at 05:00 pm
the NYU library, how do i cite that?
Jakew April 4, 2011 at 05:15 pm
"actually i just pasted into google translate." -- mind if I ask where you found an electronic copy of the full text?
"They tested sensitivity to vibration before and after circumcision. this effectively controls for some the short comings encountered in the sorells study." -- I guess you mean the fact that Sorrells et al did not test vibration? It's interesting in that respect, though I'd want to look into the methodology in more depth, to see if I can understand why the results differ from the Bleustein studies. "if you call histology little evidence then sure." -- If a colleague shows me an electronic circuit design, it might look as though it would do a certain job, but unless it's built and tested, there's no way to be sure. Similarly, anatomy might suggest sensitivity, but it's no substitute for testing. It's actually worse than a circuit diagram, though, because anatomical studies tend to be rather ambiguous, often contradicting each other, identifying the same objects differently, etc., etc. One set of authors might identify a nerve ending as type A when really it's type B, so it would be a mistake to use the known characteristics of type A when predicting the resulting sensitivity. You need to be very cautious indeed when using such anatomical data to predict sensitivity.
Jakew April 4, 2011 at 05:16 pm
"the NYU library, how do i cite that?" -- In a sense, you just have. Any citation is better than nothing, though that's a little vague. If you can remember, for example, which book or periodical you found it in, that's better.
Craig Ginsberg April 4, 2011 at 05:19 pm
i knew the publications from other authors who referenced them and i just looked up the publications them selves. confirmed what they said and proceeded to use them.
Jakew April 4, 2011 at 05:29 pm
"i knew the publications from other authors who referenced them and i just looked up the publications them selves. confirmed what they said and proceeded to use them." -- But you've obviously copied and pasted the text from Bollinger's list (or a copy of it held somewhere or other). For example, look at the first item: "Claude François Lallemand circumcises a patient to cure him of nocturnal emissions." That is identical - the words are exactly the same and in the same order - to Bollinger's list, which probably wouldn't have happened if you'd summarised the source yourself using your own words. You may have checked the sources, but it's obvious that you copied the description from Bollinger's list. I'm not saying that you shouldn't do that (as long as you're careful about copyright), but to avoid plagiarism you must credit the source.
Craig Ginsberg April 4, 2011 at 05:51 pm
that's not where i got it, i saw it in a you tube video, wrote it down and went to the library, also saw it on history of circ.net. seems a but silly to cite a youtube video
Craig Ginsberg April 4, 2011 at 05:52 pm
There is no doubt we need more sensitivity tests on the glans and foreskin. However you assume a difference will not be found based on methodologically limited study's.
The Chinese researchers had better elements of control because they were testing the sensitivity to vibration before and after on the same people. This controls for hereditary and age differences and so on. you can purchase the full copy here for only a few cents: http://d.wanfangdata.com.cn/Periodical_zhnkx200804009.aspx they also have a ton of other research i will look into on this cite. an abstract is available here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18481425 CIRP offers its criticism of Bleustein http://www.cirp.org/library/sex_function/bleustein2/
Craig Ginsberg April 4, 2011 at 06:04 pm
"lower levels of vaginal lubrication, intercourse discomfort and pain increased after circumcision"
http://d.wanfangdata.com.cn/Periodical_zgnkxzz200909011.aspx Another found decreased sensitivity to vibration: " Measuring 150 patients the glans penis vibration perception threshold before and 4 months after the change, and statistically, the results show that the penis Glans penis vibration perception threshold is different before and after surgery (P <0.05), with statistical significance." http://d.wanfangdata.com.cn/Periodical_zgnkxzz200909011.aspx
Jakew April 4, 2011 at 06:17 pm
"CIRP offers its criticism of Bleustein" -- to paraphrase, their criticism is basically that Bleustein did not measure the foreskin. Since we're discussing the glans, not the foreskin, such criticism is clearly irrelevant.
Craig Ginsberg April 4, 2011 at 06:19 pm
I know. I'm just saying.
Jakew April 4, 2011 at 06:20 pm
"seems a but silly to cite a youtube video" -- well, it raises questions about reliability and suitability of sources, but it's still important to say where you got information. It's not really fair to take credit for someone else's work, is it?
Craig Ginsberg April 4, 2011 at 06:26 pm
The sources are real because they can be viewed and read. The information is from the publications referenced them selves.
Jakew April 4, 2011 at 06:30 pm
"The sources are real because they can be viewed and read." -- I'm not disputing their existence, Craig. I assume that they *do* exist (knowing Bollinger, I wouldn't be surprised if they're misrepresented slightly, but that's another matter). What I'm talking about is the standard component of ethical academic conduct which requires one to cite the source when quoting another person's work, rather than presenting it as one's own. It's not complicated; I really don't understand why we need to have a long discussion about it.
Craig Ginsberg April 4, 2011 at 06:49 pm
I did not know Bollinger used them. The work being referenced is.
Lallemand C-F. Des Pertes Seminales Involontaires, 3 vols. Pasis: Becht Jeune 1836, 1839, 1842. Vol1.,pp.463-1: vol2., 70-162; vol. 3,.pp266-7,280-9 it was read and i myself summarized his "findings" in a few words. The youtube vid only let me know they existed. The recovery of the documents and the citation is not "plagiarism". If some one tells you about a book that you reference, do you site your friend for telling you the book exists?
Jakew April 4, 2011 at 07:00 pm
In that case there's an extraordinary coincidence, Craig, because in addition to the Lallemand sentence the descriptions are also identical for "Edward H. Dixon declares that circumcision cures and prevents masturbation", "M.J. Moses declares that Jews are immune to masturbation because of circumcision", and "Joseph Bell announces his discovery that circumcision cures bed wetting".
Craig Ginsberg April 4, 2011 at 07:06 pm
Who, Bollinger?
Craig Ginsberg April 4, 2011 at 07:10 pm
our wording is not the same they are merely a rehashing using the vocabulary in the publications them selves.
Bollinger said: M.J. Moses declares that Jews are immune to masturbation because of circumcision I said: M.J. Moses declares that circumcised Jews are immune to masturbation in these publications they actually use the word immune.
Jakew April 4, 2011 at 07:11 pm
Yes, Craig, these exact same sentences appear in both Bollinger's list (http://www.circinfosite.com/2.html) and your posts above. I'm afraid I don't believe your claim that you summarised Lallemand (and, by implication, the other sources) yourself: it's not plausible that two people would summarise these sources using exactly the same words and in the same sequence.
Craig Ginsberg April 4, 2011 at 07:15 pm
i had no knowledge of that site, it is very well even possible Bollinger re hashed my words from a post. Which i personally have no problem with.
Stan Barnes April 4, 2011 at 08:36 pm
There is no compelling reason for non-Jewish and non-Muslim parents to circumcise their sons. Because there is no compelling reason, the decision should be left for the male to make for himself once he is an adult.
Male circumcision is a form of permanent body modification.
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David Brown June 18, 2013 at 11:06 am
It will take a little getting used to. I'm a little misoneistic at times.=)
Eric & Ruby Montgomery June 18, 2013 at 12:41 pm
It doesn't look as busy, but it will take some getting used to. I cannot seem to locate event postsRead More that I previously entered for my business.
Mike Stock June 19, 2013 at 09:07 am
I like it.